Please enjoy this episode of my interview with Jerome Pollos, award-winning Northwest photojournalist specializing in documentary work, weddings and portraits for clients who love timeless, candid moments.. Transcripts may contain a few typos—with hourlong episodes, it’s difficult to catch some minor errors. Enjoy!
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Ben Brewer:
So a little bit of backstory, I guess, to get people understanding a little bit more about why I wanted to have you on the show. We met back in 2008. I was a sophomore at Grinnell college, and I was looking around for internships at newspapers. I kind of figured out that I wanted to do photography as a career, applying all over the place getting, getting rejection after rejection. And I reached out to you as, as one of the contact listed for internship positions. Little did I know at the time that there wasn't actually a formal internship I reached out to you and, and you said something to the effect of, you know, this is going to be an unpaid internship. We're going to work your off, but at the end of it, you will be a better photographer. And, you know, at first I was, you know, I was a little college college kid. I was, I was a little terrified, but you know, I dove in and I learned so much from you and Shawn at the Press and, and you guys really treated me like a staffer. You know, you pushed me and gave me that real push start in my career. So that's the sort of background here. And I just want to thank you for, for all that you did to kind of get me get me started.
Jerome Pollos:
No problem, glad we could abuse you and hopefully got something valuable out of it. And hopefully it got you where to where you are today.
Ben Brewer:
Yeah, I can, I can definitely say that it did. So you're doing a lot now these days as a freelancer after 13 years at the Coeur d'Alene Press. But I want to go back a little ways to give some, some context for you as a photographer. Tell me a little bit about how you got started in photography and go back a little ways here.
Jerome Pollos:
Oh, that's an interesting story. So I was a troubled youth let's say in California and I was looking for the quickest way out of trouble. And like many people I found the military would be the quickest route. And so when I went to the detailer, I talked to him and said, I don't want anything. That's going to screw me over. I don't want to join the military and like peel potatoes or paint the side of a ship or some other stereotypical cartoon character of the military. And he asked me what I like to do. And I told him, I, you know, I don't really do anything. You know, I've, DJ'ed a few house parties and goofed around with that. If they cool, you'll be a radio DJ. I thought he was full of. I was like, there's no way, you know, you know, radio DJs in the military.
Jerome Pollos:
He was like, and I was like, good morning, Vietnam and Robin Williams, they got that. And I was like, okay. So pass the test to make sure I could go to the school. Everything worked out, went to bootcamp, went to the journalism school in Indianapolis called the defense information school and was there for a while. And they had a big segment on broadcast journalism, a big segment on print journalism you know, like a month kind of segment on public and media relations. And then like a two week course on photojournalism. I was doing great on everything hopped into photojournalism and I failed. I sucked at photography and didn't really care about it because I didn't want to be a photographer anyway, I didn't want to be the radio DJ. So I put in, what's called a dream sheet where you get to pick where you want to go for your first duty station.
Jerome Pollos:
And I picked Suda Bay Creek Cuba and Puerto Rico, all islands, radio stations, nice speeches. And they sent me to Washington DC to a newspaper where immediately upon arriving into the office after driving cross country for two and a half days, they give me a camera and say, Hey, you're a photographer. And your first assignments tonight. That sucked. And so I went through and took my pictures and actually I got help from some nurses and a doctor at the hospital. I was taking pictures at, they help set up the camera and put it on the happy face for me. So it didn't mess up. The photos turned in. My three rolls of film, wrote my story. And then the next, you know, on Monday when I came back in boss called me and said, Hey, these photos turned out, okay. You said you sucked at photography.
Jerome Pollos:
I was like, but I do. I, it goes, well, something happened. I was like, well, they set up the camera for me. It worked out. He was like, okay, well, we're going to use these in the newspaper. And they did, they, you know, put a nice double truck in there and front pages, mine, and and lo and behold, the family came in that had their son on the front page later on. And it makes you told me, you know, that this photo was the last kind of great photo they had of their son that, you know, where he was smiling and they want to get a, a really nice print of it so they can hang it up into his little brother's room so they can always remember. So brother, cause he ended up passing away from my cancer. So that changed it, right?
Jerome Pollos:
They're like who the hell wants to be a radio DJ after, you know, realizing the power that photography has in those situations. And from there and on my my boss outswam and he he threw me into the mix, like anytime there was a big name photographer or publication coming on the base that needed media tours he made sure I was a guy. So, you know, Michael Williamson and Susan Bedell and, and Mike Wolf and all these guys that worked at the Post and USA Today and, you know, Washington Times and all these other places I got to just basically just kind of tag along and, and pick their brain and see how they worked. And, and that was a start that's where I went from teenage troubled youth to wanting to be a radio DJ to finding my way into photography.
Ben Brewer:
Tell me a little bit more about, about the photo actually, that, that kind of caught the family's eyes. Tell me a little bit more about it. Yeah,
Jerome Pollos:
It was it was this picture of this kid, you know, balled some chemo. And he had a cockatiel on top of his head and it was a pet therapy program that was actually taking pictures of, and there was probably about, I don't know, dozen kids or so, and this local 4H club and a couple of other people brought in, you know, various animals that were, that were I guess, okay. To bring into a pediatric oncology ward is basically this there to kind of brighten up the kids' day. You know, they brought in chinchillas and snakes and birds and all sorts of stuff. It, it's funny because one of the photos of the guide was one of the first photos I took of the kid. And it was blown out to hell. I had this it was a Nikon in 90 and I had a potato masher, met splash when those big dogs, you know, it looks big grip that goes on inside of the camera. And I had that same full blast and I blinded the poor kid and it was just horrible. And then I think it was a doctor that said, Hey, you need to adjust that. Otherwise you're going to, you might end up hurting somebody. I was like, Oh, okay. And so we adjusted the flash. And then after that, you know, I think it was like three frames later. I got that picture and it worked out really well. It was kind of cool.
Ben Brewer:
That's great. Yeah. And just like that emotional connection you, you, you made with the, with the family for being able to make that picture that's, that's pretty great. Yeah,
Jerome Pollos:
It was, it was good stuff. It kind of kick-started me in the right direction.
Ben Brewer:
So see, that was kind of that defining moment for you kind of knew. And I think, you know, a lot of photographers listening kind of have all had that sort of moment of, yeah, this, this is it. What did you kind of see as your sort of career goals at that time?
Jerome Pollos:
At that time? I didn't really know, you know, I mean, photojournalism was like a new thing to me. I, I realized, you know, from that moment on the power, it kind of held and then the importance of it. But you know, I, wasn't one of those guys that kinda, you know, studied, you know, Capa and Eisennstein and, you know, all these other, you know, greats out there. I kind of you know, I just, I just kinda fell into it. So after that, you know, the, the mission was just kind of learn how to take pictures. Cause I still kind of sucked. I mean, you know, I knew how to put stuff on the happy face mode and the Nikon, but other than that, I didn't really have a lot of technical knowledge. And luckily I worked at the national Naval medical center, but that's the Maryland at the time.
Jerome Pollos:
And they had a dark room there where all the medical photographers work and medical photographers are extremely technical. I mean, down to, you know, what temperature processing their films at and how much fixers are using and, and all this stuff. So I got a really good, really good technical education and photography through them. And then with my job shadowing and, and basically just contacting whoever I could, that I admired at the time and seeing if they would help me out. I kinda got the inside of the photojournalism part. And I, you know, I was still in the military, so I wasn't like, you know, I was a college student who could go do internships or I could freelance somewhere. I was still obligated for another, you know, at that point three and a half years of service.
Jerome Pollos:
So my main goal was just kind of see if I wanted to stay in the military if I wanted to leave. And, and I, you know, I, I was thinking I was going to go, you know, shoot for the blue angels. That'd be my next duty station or worked for the white house communications agency in the military component. But they ended up sending me to a ship and said, and so I went to a ship and realized that being gone 10 months out of every year, wasn't for me and my family. So I got out and the ultimate goal was to go to school here and in Coeur d'Alene Idaho for two years to knock out some pre-recs and go to Western Kentucky university and have Mike Morris kind of brainwashed me in the fundamentals of photojournalism. And I never left, I, I got a job as soon as I got up here at the Coeur d'Alene Press. And I kind of made that decision. Do I want to go to school and pay, you know, 85,000 plus to get an education so I can get a job offer that I just got offered or do I take this and see where it goes? So I took the job at the press and, and the rest is history.
Ben Brewer:
Yeah. I think that's, I think that's a really common, a common theme amongst, amongst other photographers. Is that, that kind of question of like, all right, where, where do I go from here? You know, is it, is it go find that kind of small town, smaller paper or do you do the graduate school thing? And I think it's kind of, it's definitely it's changed a lot recently, but I think that's that seems to be a thread. A lot of people are going towards is leaning towards the, on the job experience.
Jerome Pollos:
Yeah. And I think for me, you know, having, you know, a family and, and, you know, I wasn't, you know, I wasn't like, you know, the 19 year olds going straight into Ohio or Western Kentucky, or, you know, San Francisco, you know, those big universities, I was, you know, 24 and, you know, had a few years above everybody. But I was just at a different direction at that point, I think. And I realized that you know, with a family, I couldn't just, you know, kind of just constantly move and bounce around, you know, which a lot of the interns we had came through the press. I mean, that's what you do is, you know, you, you work the smaller newspapers and mid-sized newspapers and stepping stones until you get to the place that you want to stay at. And that usually means that every year, you know, two or three years, you, you kind of go from one place to another until you find, you know, your landing spot, where you want to stick around. And, and hopefully in, in today's kind of atmosphere, you can stick around for a while and until you get your feet under you to become a freelancer
Ben Brewer:
[Inaudible]. So, so you get started at the Press. You, you take the job there. Tell me about, you know, those, those first, first couple of years when you're, when you're started there, you know, how are things structured? Has, how did you get along? How were some, you know, some memorable moments from then?
Jerome Pollos:
Well, it's kinda interesting. Cause when I got here, they only had one photographer on staff and that person was kind of wasn't working out. And so I heard about it. So I turned in a portfolio, well, there was another photographer that I just kind of just met, who worked at a local camera store. I named Jason Hunt and he had he had applied to, and since I was going to school they couldn't quite work around my schedule. So Jason took the full-time position. And then I came on basically as kind of a freelancer. And then immediately after I started freelancing, they said, Hey, we need a writer who can also take photos. Why, you know, in military journalism school, they teach you how to write as well. So I had some writing samples and I got the job as a writer photographer.
Jerome Pollos:
And I did that from about 2000 until 2004, 2005 timeframe. And I finally drove the managing editor nuts by every, every week we had a meeting and they would always say anything else people want to talk about? And I'd always raise my hand at the end of the meeting and said, Hey, I think we really should have two full-time photographers. And after about four and a half years of saying that they finally decided it was a good idea. And they hired me on the second full-time photographer, which was great because Jason Hunt at the time, he, I mean, he was one of the best photo journalists I've ever worked with. In fact, he was like number one in the state for awhile and it's Idaho. So, you know, you don't think that much of it, but I mean, he was making a name for himself and he had some opportunities and and so we pushed each other constantly, you know, I mean, we were, we were never competitive against each other.
Jerome Pollos:
We're competitive against these ourselves. And we push each other constantly and it really helped develop the way I kind of, you know, approach things and looked at stuff. And then places like a photo a day and Melissa Lyttle and Dave Holloway and, and Chip Levulan and Bob [inaudible] and all those guys on that listserv were really instrumental and kind of, you know, caring and my images apart and really given me some insight and things to think about, you know, and, you know, I was trying to shoot everything super clean and straightforward. And Melissa Lyttle said, you know, not that it doesn't have to be perfect all the time, letting you know, leave some room for an image to breathe and, and give yourself an opportunity to kind of see how stuff unfolds. And, you know, and Holloway was really instrumental in telling me, you know, it, wasn't so much about style.
Jerome Pollos:
It's about, you know, how you, how you, you know, communicate and, you know, attract certain people and how you, how you kind of you know, interact with, with the people you're photographing that determines a lot more how, you know, the quality you can build into your images versus style. So a lot of that, you know, those early days at the newspaper the newspaper is a small component of it, but you know, like photo day and some of these workshops I'd go and just networking really helped push me to kind of find what I wanted to do ultimately, and how it was going to do it.
Ben Brewer:
It is kind of that early stage where, where one's trying to find the style. I think that's for a lot of people, it, it, it takes, you know, decades to, to really find your kind of unique style of photography and that sort of, that sort of coaching aspect, the mentoring aspect is, is a really big part of that. I'll get, I want to get to that later. Cause I think that's a really big part of, you know, something I've, I've seen that you've you've started with doing some business mentoring for photographers and coaching in that way, but I want to get to that a little bit, a little bit later, later on. So going, going back into the time of the press, you know, as an intern, I was shoved into situations that I definitely wasn't wasn't comfortable in and that's kind of the nature of it. Tell me a little bit about, you know, a really notably, like challenging or difficult assignment or project that you worked on.
Jerome Pollos:
So for me projects were kind of my bread and butter. Like I love working on long-term projects and one of the first long-term projects I did with an Alzheimer's story, and it's kind of like the cliche story that every photojournalism student works on is a homeless story or an Alzheimer's story. And I knew that it was cliche, so I wanted to try to take a different approach to it. And so I found this guy through a phone call that our editor at the time Bill Buley had forwarded to me because the guy was and this was when I was still writing. And this old guy was mad because we didn't show up to his wife's care facilities, Christmas party. And he's, you know, and it's, you know, early eighties and, you know, just, just upset that we weren't there and it's something we would normally cover anyway.
Jerome Pollos:
So he was telling me about all this stuff about how, you know, his wife's been in this care facility for a few years and, you know, they care for her better than anybody. And I kinda got some background that, you know, she came down with Alzheimer's and he was living alone, but, you know, he visited her every day. And it kind of intrigued me about how we always hear about the people with Alzheimer's and, and the, the approach that way. But it's not at the time it wasn't really popular or wasn't done wherever, showing how people who are dealing with their loved ones, having Alzheimer's. And this was a unique case because this gentlemen herb, he, you know, it was married for, you know, like 50 something years. And he was, you know, came from the, the better homes and gardens generation, you know, where he'd come home.
Jerome Pollos:
And his wife had had his slippersa and his robe laid out in the newspaper and, you know, would make them a drink. Why is she got dinner ready? And you know, he was, he was relying on her for everything and she's gone. And so he was basically, you know, an 84 year old bachelor trying to learn how to cook and clean for himself and manage the house and everything else that his wife did for, you know, 50 plus years. So that's the approach I wanted to do. And I went out and I started it and I, you know, did some photos and I talked to him a little bit and, you know, he was like, well, when's the store you're going to be in. And I was like, well, you know, it's not like a simple, quick story that the idea I have is this.
Jerome Pollos:
And I told him, you know, what the story was about, you know, him trying to learn how to, you know, fend for himself as his wife deals with Alzheimer's. And I wasn't really clear on what the end of the story would be. And I knew what it was going to be. It was going to be either when he passed away or she passed away. Because, you know, that's kind of the finality of it. And I didn't have enough guts to tell him, cause I was pretty new at this. And so it went on for about six months and he was getting mad that I wasn't doing it. And we kind of getting a little bad about it. And then he had me over for dinner there and we'd do more photos. And then and then I brought a reporter on, because I thought, well, maybe I need somebody to write this because I don't feel like I, I I'm competent enough to write it.
Jerome Pollos:
And so I brought on a reporter and she borrowed some photos from, from him of him and his wife. And and you know, said that she was going to get the story going. And he would, she was going to send over a little proof so we can see where she's headed. And then she just never talked to him again for like a month. And it really made him mad. And so and so he told his son about what was going on. And then within a week after that his, his wife had died. And his son was really upset just overall in general on the, and herb was upset. And so his son called up and told the editor at the time, the managing editor that the reporter had stole some photos and the photographer had wasted everybody's time. And, and, you know, he wants all this stuff back and I was like, Holy crap, this just happened.
Jerome Pollos:
You know? And the editors asked me about it and I've told him the I've been working on this for like nine months. And, and here's what I got, and this is what I was trying to do. And he's like, well, have the reporter, you know, give you the photos, you meet up with them, apologize, get the photos back and, and see if it can be salvaged. And it wasn't the eligible, the family didn't want to have anything to do with it. And that nine months of work materialize into nothing, it never saw the light of day. And so that was like my, my roughest project ever, because I worked on it so hard and it was my first one and I was so ambitious and, and, but I was, didn't have any confidence in my writing and, and approach. And I didn't have any, you know, confidence in, in how to tell somebody, you know, that the story's over when you or your wife dies. And if I would've just started with that, I think it would have been fine, but that was definitely a lesson learned, you know, to, to be clear and direct and what you're trying to do with the story and what you need from it, from the get-go, because if you're not, you're just wasting everybody's time. And I did, I wasted everybody's time. And that was a tough lesson to learn.
Ben Brewer:
Yeah. Nine, nine months is a, that's a real long story to, to relate, to engage with for that long, you know, both kind of technically in terms of your time, as well as just kind of emotionally being a part of that.
Jerome Pollos:
Yeah. It was definitely one of those one of those learning situations, but, you know, when we stepped into next story, I was ready, you know, I knew, I knew how to be direct and tell him exactly what I needed and made sure that, you know, everybody was on the same page. So it made the process easier.
Ben Brewer:
Yeah. Do you think that's probably the biggest thing, you know, you know, you know, we probably will have some, some younger photographers, maybe college students that are kind of getting started, started on some of these photo projects. Is that probably the biggest takeaway from that? Are there kind of other takeaways you think they might have when they're, you know, kicking off photo projects or starting to brainstorm,
Jerome Pollos:
You know, everybody kind of stumbled on different stuff. I mean, it just depends on, you know, what your strong suits are. Some people it's technical abilities and some people it's, you know, the, the interactions. So, you know, everybody's different, you know, I, I know we had, you know, some interns that tried to do some photo projects while they're there, but, you know, a lot of them were just kind of the Holy crap, I'm in an internship. I need to get a story for my portfolio. I think I'm going to do this. And then you'd go out and it would be, it wouldn't be anything new and they wouldn't have a new idea. And I think that's probably the biggest stumbling block I've seen with most students and, you know, and, and people new to the field is, is how to kind of get past the cliches and, and really find something that you can do. That's new and original. That's totally different from, you know, what's already been done and that's the hardest part because there's so many projects that have been done. But you know, it's just finding that way and that approach, you kind of highlight something different or a different angle or, or, you know, or just kind of flip it on its head and see, you know, how you can make it totally unique.
Ben Brewer:
Do you think that comes from just kind of engaging in your community? Like how, how do you kind of get at that, those stories that, that aren't cliche
Jerome Pollos:
Keeping your eyes and ears open, you know, having a notebook or, you know, keeping a note on your phone of just story ideas and, and when you think of stuff, you know, write it down. And, and because, I mean, so many times you know, I remember when I was first starting out, I would think of these ideas and I was like, Oh, that's great. And then I would forget about it or, you know, it would come up again. And I was like, Oh, I just thought about that a couple of months ago, and now somebody else already did it. And like, man so, you know, just writing them down and then, and then don't just kind of let them sit there, like actively find out how you can make it happen and get started on it, and then just get started. So many people do this, you know, I mean, it's great to do research and, and, and the background work, but there's only so much you can do before you start shooting.
Jerome Pollos:
I mean, you, I mean, we're for photojournalists, we, we have to start with shooting and the research part you can do through the whole project. But you really just need, you know, some quick background and then make your connections and then, and then start shooting as soon as you got something buyable, you know, and I know a lot of stories just kind of get started off the idea and the research phase, and then they just kind of fall off to the wayside because there's no, there's nothing pushing you, you know, those milestones of images where you take something that kicks and you look at it and go, Oh, this is awesome. That's what keeps your story going? You know, hardly ever do photo journalists, you know, have a notebook full of notes and no photos, and they're still motivated to go out and shoot stuff.
Ben Brewer:
Yeah. It's kind of, you know, the old adage, you know, ideas are a dime, a dozen getting, getting actual pictures for your story that really kind of kicks things. It keeps, it keeps that momentum.
Jerome Pollos:
Yeah, definitely. Yeah. I mean, you have to have some sort of, some sort of progress that makes you feel good and makes you want to continue to, to see it through,
Ben Brewer:
Obviously back to the beginning of the story, you know, I interned with you and Sean at the press and was able to learn a lot, you know, what do you kind of see as kind of mistakes that, that younger photographers make a lot or, or that you see happening more regular, that, that, that could be improved on
Jerome Pollos:
They don't experiment enough. I mean, I see so many photographers, you know, they're keeping an eye out on all the clip contests and, you know, world press and all these, you know, competitions, and they try to mimic these. I mean, maybe they don't try, but they just see it and it kind of automatically incorporates into their work. But I see, you know, I, I think I even did this with you is, you know, people would come back from an assignment and they would shoot, you know, for like 15, 20 minutes and they'd get a shot. And then they would say, I got a shot and they'd leave. And when you get the shot, that's like, that's your CYA? That's like, okay. I got something that's pretty good that I can run. That's a time to kind of push yourself and experiment, like stay longer you know, switch up lenses.
Jerome Pollos:
You know, if you're, if you've got, you know, wide angle lightest, get rid of the 16 to 35 and put on the 70-200mm or the 50mm you know, really push yourself once you got the shot that you think is usable to go even further. Don't just stop right there because you stop right there that holds your creativity, that holds a lot of progress that you can make, you know, in building everything, you know, visually, and the more you experiment, the more you try new things, the more arrows you add to your quiver. And that's what you ultimately want to do. I mean, you want, you want to have this arsenal of, of, of skillsets that you could utilize in, in all sorts of situations, because, you know, if you're lucky enough to have a staff job more than likely that you're going to have to be a freelancer at some point in your life and editors want somebody that can adapt and do a variety of different types of things in their, in their assignments. They just don't want, you know, somebody to show up at the 16 to 35 shoot 30 frames until they got a couple of good ones and then leave. They want somebody who's going to shoot something unique and that's telling, and that's, you know, it's got something there that's going to attract eyes to the, to the, to the page, to the, to the link, to whatever it's going to be posted with.
Ben Brewer:
Yeah. That's so that's so true. I keep that in mind on all of my assignments I'm working on as a freelancer. It's like, you, you get, you get the vision in your, in your mind's eye. This is, this is probably the shot. And then yeah, it is really just a license to go out and, and make something different out of that situation. See it in a unique way. And maybe that turns into the shot.
Jerome Pollos:
Yeah, definitely. And no matter what the assignment is, I mean, you know, I, we all have these crap assignments. I mean, sometimes they're, you know, if you're a newspaper staffer, it's a check pass or seven meeting or something that nobody wants to do, but they end up with, or, you know, if you're a freelance guy, you know, it could be you know, some sort of portrait assignment that, you know, is it just somebody who's like a, you know, a business guy and it's not a lot there. But you know, to kind of go through and really to sit back and say, okay, what can I do in this situation? You know, how can I Polish this turd? And like, make it shine like gold. That's what editors want from their photographers. They want somebody, they can take anything and make it shine. And, and that's, you know, if you can do that, you're, you're well on your way to having a successful career, it's the ones that, you know, take assignments that are crap and come back with crap that this never works out for, for the people who are doing that.
Ben Brewer:
Okay. So, so we've gotten kind of in your story, you you've been working at the, at the press for awhile now to kind of spoil the ending here. You're now a freelancer. So tell me a little bit about that transition from a staff position towards the freelance world and, and kind of over what time period that happened, your mindset throughout that, just a little bit, a little bit of story there.
Jerome Pollos:
So about 2009, 2010 timeframe, Shawn came on board 2007. I had worked with Jason Hunt from 2000 to 2007. And when Shawn came on board, you know, we worked really well together, but I started to realize the shift in how the newspaper was handling photos. You know, the pages got smaller. They were using a lot more wire and courtesy photos. Even though we even have a ton of kick-ass photos for them, you know, we'd go out. Maybe the reporters never had assignments for us, which was a problem on a lot of occasions. We would go out and Shawn and I would, would compete. And we would just set up like, you know, competition for each other and say, okay the, the, the theme of the day is blue, go out and shoot something that, you know, that captures blue. And we come up with, you know, just different stuff to do to kind of push each other, but, but also get great images and we get these great images and they get buried on the inside because they wanted to run this, you know, check passer photo on the front page.
Jerome Pollos:
And it's defeating, you know, at that your life, man, you know, I'm working all these hours. I'm only getting paid for 40 my work isn't valued anymore and it's burning me out. And not only that, but all these hours, I'm working, I'm missing out on my family time. And I, you know, I hadn't had it raised in like five years and I was like, all right, what am I going to do? So I came up with an exit strategy and the exit strategy was to start my own business. I wanted to kind of stay in the chord land area. I had some opportunities and Florida and, and up in crystal Lake area of Illinois to take some staff positions, but the timing was never right now, my kids were, you know, going into high school or my wife was starting nursing school.
Jerome Pollos:
But you know, if I could stay here and create my own business, I, I thought that might be a good way to stay in photography and not have to like reinvent myself. And so that's when I kind of started to do and Chip Litherland had taken that role and he left the newspaper and started up his own business. And he was doing really, really well. So I picked his brain and he kind of gave me a little bit of insight on his playbook on how to do it well, because he kind of fumbled it the first time and then had to come back to the newspaper and then left and, and did it right the second time. So, you know, I, I just kind of pull pages out of there. I said, okay, you know, this is what I need to know.
Jerome Pollos:
I need to know how to, you know, I need to know about taxes and contracts and insurances and, and how to use QuickBooks and marketing and, and client delivery and communication and all this other stuff. So from about 2000 Oh 2010 beginning of 2013, I, every freelance job, I took that money, went directly back into my business. I bought, you know, computers, I bought lighting equipment. I bought cameras and lenses. Because all my stuff was pretty old because I always had press stuff. It was brand new. So, you know, I, for two and a half years, I just invested in my business. So I had no debt when I was leaving the newspaper for my business. And then in January, I went in and talked to Mike Patrick, managing editor. I said, Hey, I want to give you guys a lot of notice because I'm going to leave after 13 years.
Jerome Pollos:
And I gave him my notice for six months, cause I know it's hard to find somebody to take on that role. So I gave my six months notice and Sean was kind of being pruned to, to step into my role as a chief photographer. And then we were on the, on the lookout for somebody to step into his role. And that's, that's kind of the way it all went down. It was just, it was an exit strategy more than anything else to, to spend more time with the family and be able to give myself you know a fighting chance to stick into photography because that's what I, I knew. And that's what I loved. Yeah.
Ben Brewer:
Yeah. And I think something that's, that's really interesting. And part of that is really just the purposefulness around that decision about that process. Do you, can you talk a little bit about, you know, I saw it in some in a piece about you there, they were talking kind of accounting for good times and bad times as a freelancer and as a small business. So it seems like you kind of had that, that very realistic mindset during that transition period. Tell me a little bit about kind of your, your mindset around sort of accounting for that as a freelancer.
Jerome Pollos:
Well, I knew, you know, it, wasn't going to be an easy thing, like, right, right. When I first started looking into starting my own business, you know, you read all these articles about in the first, first three years, 75% of businesses fail. And after five years, you know, another 10% of those fail and, and it was scary. It's like, you know, I'm, I'm taking a paycheck and benefits and somebody doing my taxes for me every two weeks and I am taking control of that. And now I am in charge of providing for my family solely, like I am the one that's there to do that. And that's scary as when you're, when you're, you know, you go from the military to a staff job to, okay. I have to find a way to generate funds on my own and pay my own paycheck and all this other crap.
Jerome Pollos:
So that part scared the out of me because it was it's real, it's so real. So I, I kind of planned for how I was going to do that. And I wanted to make sure that when I left the paper, I had a fairly fat account for my business account. And you know, I had a lot of my bills paid off and, you know, except for my house and my car, but I, you know, I just didn't want to go into freelancing with a lot of debt. So I kind of handled that approach, you know, pretty, pretty logically. I, I, I would assume cause it seemed to work. But then, you know, I, it, there was like a shift in the way people, especially for like weddings wedding seemed to kind of be where some of my business was going towards and what, you know, a lot of my funds were coming from cause freelance, you know, it pops up, you know, the day before, maybe a week or two before, if you're really lucky.
Jerome Pollos:
But weddings are long-term financial stability. I mean, people book, you, you know, at the time I was getting booked out 18 months in advance. So I was sitting up pretty fast for 2013 and I figured 2014, you know, as soon as I gave my notice, I was going to be, you know, have at least half of my calendar full. And I didn't. And for some reason that years when couples decided that they only needed nine to 12 months to plan out their wedding. So while I'm sitting there quitting my job with a nice fat bank account, come June, I'm thinking it's going to start building up again. And it didn't, I freaked out. I was like, Holy, what just happened? I quit my job and now I don't get any business. And so I started searching no drone pilots, worst photographer ever.
Jerome Pollos:
And just seeing that something's happening, that I don't know about. And you know, my wife talked me off the ledge for a few months and, and everything was still manageable, but I'm still freaking out. And then come September, October timeframe, the booking started coming in again. And then of course the winter lull happens and I freak out again, you know, cause your accounts nice and fat. And then it starts getting smaller as you get through the winter and into March and April. But, you know, I quickly found out, you know, that that business funding is cyclical and depending on what kind of industry you're in you can get money, you know, at certain points and then some parts of the year you're not getting any money. And so you have to plan and make sure you're not spending, you know, your whole nest age every year. You have to, you have to shove some of those nuts back, you know, and, and make sure that there's something there to last.
Ben Brewer:
Yeah. Yeah. And so after, after that kind of bumpy patch things kind of seem to settle in a little bit, you were able to really kind of nail down your kind of client profile and all that you think. Yeah,
Jerome Pollos:
Yeah. Yeah. I mean, it's all about adjustments. I mean, after that, you know, my age, you know, you're continually getting educated as a business owner and at that point I realized, okay I need to make sure I know how I'm managing my funds and not just knowing how to bring money in, but knowing how to, to hoard it away and manage that. But then, you know, you start figuring out, you know, your marketing plans and, and how to attract the ideal client and branding you know, and all this other stuff, you know? So you know, you, you want to do all this at once, but of course it all costs money and it's all, you know, as a one man show, there's so much to do. And when you have all that to do, it can become overwhelming. And I got overwhelmed you know, once or twice, you know, kind of trying to do too much.
Jerome Pollos:
And I just realized, you know, I don't have to do everything at once. You know, first and foremost, I got to make sure that I, you know, I'm bringing in money and my family's taken care of, that's always number one. Number two is making sure my clients are taken care of. No matter if it's a wedding client, I'm a high school, senior, you know a freelance job or an editorial magazine or publication or commercial work. And then, you know, and then it's like, okay, once I get all those things taken care of, then it's just trying to figure out how I'm going to adjust every year. And, and you do, you switch up the recipe every single year. You adjust your pricing, you, you take a look at your contracts, you make sure that there's nothing that you can possibly outsource or adjust on timelines to make your, your life a little bit easier on how you're delivering stuff and taking care of production.
Jerome Pollos:
And, you know, every single year you're learning something new. And that's one thing I, I teach in my mentoring classes is, is don't just be satisfied when you, when you hit something and you're doing okay, don't be satisfied, like find ways to do things better or to make something better for your clients or to, to bring in more money to your business. Because people forget, like when you're a freelancer, you have to retire and social security might not be there. So we don't have pensions. So if you don't have enough to, you know, cover, you know, 40, $50,000 a year and living expenses, once you retire and you know, most people probably aren't gonna retire nowadays until 65 or 70, unless you plan on dying at 72, you better have more than a hundred thousand dollars in your savings.
Ben Brewer:
And, and, and part of, you know, being able to make a living is to really create the work that that people are going to pay for. So, so tell me a little bit about, you know, your style and, and the work that you produce. You know, you've mentioned weddings, you mentioned editorial too. Tell me a little bit about your, your kind of visual style that you kind of try to try to use throughout your work.
Jerome Pollos:
Well, it's, it's really crazy because when I first started doing weddings, I actually hated doing weddings. It was the worst thing to ever, like I did it because it was, it was what I thought at the time with decent money, you know, I wasn't making much at the press. So, you know, if I made $500, you know, shooting for six or seven hours, I'm like, that's good. You know, I asked the need to take my kids on a, on a little vacation in the summertime if I shoot five or six weddings. And, and the thing I did is I just basically, you know, when I first started, I shot what I thought people wanted for weddings. And I looked at the wedding magazines and all the blogs, and I was shooting these contrived, you know, just really kind of cliche wedding photos. And then I had somebody tell me, what, why are you trying to be a wedding photographer?
Jerome Pollos:
Why don't you just be a photo journalist, who's covering a wedding. And I'm like, that's genius. Why didn't I think of that? So I I started pitching myself as that, you know, I was a photo journalist that documented weddings. I just, wasn't a wedding photographer. I captured a whole story of your wedding day, and I captured moments and behind the scenes stuff, and, you know, the post stuff that we were going to do for portraits, those have to be done, but I'm also capturing moments in between those times too. And that's what people started to be attracted to for my portrait work and my wedding work. And for editorial and commercial work, especially editorial, you know, there's nothing different from that. You know, I mean, if you can, if you can be creative on an assignment and capture something really well in a timely fashion and capturing everything well and know how to deliver on time and on deadline, you can get a job just about anywhere you can, you just have to make sure people know about you.
Jerome Pollos:
And you're, and you're, you're good to work with. But for weddings and portraits and especially commercial work if you don't have some sort of uniqueness or predetermined style you know, a lot of times it's, it's, it's tough to get out in front of people. And for, for me I'm surrounded by a lot of wedding photographers and portrait photographers who were straightforward wedding and portrait photographer. So being a professional photo journalist in that realm, I immediately stood out and that was kind of my saving grace people kind of looked at it. And I said, you know, you don't tone, you know, with these, you know, the yellow faded Pinterest colors that everybody does. And I was like, well, I, you know, my toning is just like, I did the newspapers of now I can remove pimples and facial shine. But I still keep colors, you know, strewed, skin tones and accurate. And my black and whites are straight black and white. I don't, you know, make them look like, you know, 10 types or, you know, some faded black and white. I just keep it timeless and classic. And that's kind of what has been my been my brand is timeless behind the scenes storytelling.
Ben Brewer:
Yeah. And I love the blog post you put up recently, there was, you know, don't go for trendy, go for timeless. And I think that's, that's exactly that
Jerome Pollos:
Right. I mean, that's what, you know, I mean, Hey, if you look at photojournalism back in the eighties, you know, and, and even early nineties there's always been trend in photojournalism, but those trends go away. You know, the, the knock away out of focus, head shop, you know, when that photo came out of I can't remember it was late Georgia or Chesney or something. We did that photo. I can't remember how many photos I saw on clip contests. That'd be judged out of focus, headshots you know, and you look back and like the eighties at sports pitchers, like they're heavy black vignettes around everything and crazy dodging and burning and dark room work on Tri-X. But you know, the stuff that really sticks out, you know, the, the Vietnam shot from Eddie Adams and, you know, some of the Bobby Kennedy shot and, you know, third is straightforward, captured moments that, that don't get old. They don't look trendy. They're, they're, they're riveting, they're moving they're they capture something that tells a story and tells a story.
Ben Brewer:
You know, one of the things nowadays, you know, I think it's the, the dreaded clarity slider in Photoshop. I've got a, I've got a blog post that's going to be coming out soon. It's, it's exactly that, you know, you got to pay attention to what you're doing, because it's just it, if you don't take a step back and look at what you're producing and kind of an objective way, you might be pretty shocked when you come back and look at it, you know, five years down the road.
Jerome Pollos:
Yeah. I think the new the new replacement for clarity is the Dehaze slider and Lightroom, like people just go nuts with that. I'm like, come on people.
Ben Brewer:
Yeah, exactly. Exactly. All right. So to kind of wrap up the episode a little bit here, we've got a quick kind of lightning round, a series of questions about, about your photography and about, you know, what people, what people can learn. Right. So what's one. All right. So what's one thing in your bag that you'd never leave home without
Jerome Pollos:
One thing in my bag and never leave home without, on the side of the camera. I always bring a handheld light meter just because I usually like walk around a room. It doesn't matter if it's a commercial shoot editorial wedding. If I'm in a space, that's got tricky lighting, I'll walk around and meet her certain spots. So if something comes up, I know I can switch really quickly, not, you know, have my in-camera meter thrown off by something. So that's probably something I always have in my bag.
Ben Brewer:
Yeah. That's great. What do you do outside of that kind of recharges, you kind of gets, gets your energy back, your creative energy.
Jerome Pollos:
Oh, I get off the grids so hard. I feel backpacking. I do overlanding, which is kind of like extreme car camping. I, I, I've never been an outdoors person until I moved up to Idaho. I was always a city kid and I, once I got up here, I realized, Holy crap, this is awesome. So when, especially, you know, in the summer when I'm really busy I try to take as much time off as I can, you know, when I can the summer, but like come fall. And like, even in the winter time, I'll go camping. I'll go snowshoeing and backpacking and, you know, just anything to get outdoors and not sit in front of my computer editing and making phone calls and doing emails.
Ben Brewer:
What drives you to improve your skills as a, as a visual storyteller, as a photographer
Jerome Pollos:
Boredom? I I've been, you know, everybody has those peaks and valleys when they're shooting. And when I see that I'm going through these holes, I'll try something totally different. I'll, you know I, I, I've been known to kind of just go out with sometimes like a 300 millimeter lens and do a portrait session, or if I'm shooting a commercial job and I have some latitude on something I'll just take a 50 and shoot it and try something different. So boredom, you know, really kind of prompts me to try something new and try to evolve. And, you know, like I said, always adding another arrow to the quiver.
Ben Brewer:
That's that it's, it is kind of important to, just to have that have that versatility. So, so what advice would you give to a college student graduating from, from university, you know, about a career in, in news or in photography?
Jerome Pollos:
Well, I mean, they went to a photo journalism program. I would tell them, don't stop your education there. Start going to business school really start understanding the dynamics of contract negotiations and business structures and pricing and, and supply and demand. Because more than likely, you know, a majority of the people who have staff jobs now will find themselves as a freelancer sooner or later. And the ones that don't have that business insight are going to struggle. If you have that business insight, it sets you up so much better in the long run.
Ben Brewer:
Yeah. So, so before we wrap up here and kind of let people know where they can find more of your work, tell me a little bit about about your business mentoring kind of coaching for, for photographers that you've just recently started.
Jerome Pollos:
Yeah. So while, you know, every time I've had an opportunity to learn something in my career, whether it was through photojournalism or weddings or portraits or anything like that you know, I always called people and knocked on doors and talk to people just to, you know, pick their brain and see what they can do. And some of them were receptive and some of them weren't. And I've been finding lately because of the business dynamic, especially in our area here in the inland Northwest it's really competitive and it's, sometimes it can be cut throat, you know people don't want to share their, their, the way they do things or, you know, help people out. So, you know, I had a lot of photographers come to me who were just starting out. And it was one of the things where I, I just opened up my door.
Jerome Pollos:
I was like, Hey, you know, what do you want to know? You know, ask me stuff. And, and sometimes they'd ask me simple stuff like this technical photography questions, and I would just turn around and say, okay, well, you know, you're trying to figure out this, but what are you trying to do to make your business, you know, successful? Like, you know, just cause you can, you know, about apertures and shutter speeds and ISO's doesn't mean that you're going to be successful. What do you need, what are you doing to make it access? And most of them didn't have an answer. And so, you know, I'd mentor them and, and sit around and talk to them and give them insights on, you know, pricing and everything else. And some people took it and some people didn't. And then I had a photographer that used to work at the college, contact me.
Jerome Pollos:
He said, Hey, I have a, a friend of mine who's starting her photography business. And I know you help people out and she's looking for some insight. And so I sat down with her and I talked to her and I, me and my wife had been talking about mentoring. And I had this idea to do a three three-year mentoring program where, you know, David signed a contract, there would be a no compete clause for, for for weddings in particular, because that seemed most people were contacting me for. And during that three years, I to give them, you know, I think it ended up being 84 different topics that we were going to go over, everything from toning to, to planning for retirement and everything in between. Angie signed up on it for three years and we did this program and I created PDFs and, and, you know, adjusted everything to kind of fit what she needed.
Jerome Pollos:
And now she's, she's doing great. I just talked to her this morning and she's, I mean, she's busier than ever. She's, you know, doing well. She's, she's got the workload that she wants and she's making the money that she wants. And it's awesome. So now, you know, I decided I had all this, you know, these PDFs and all this insight, and then I still get contact for people. I might as well just open it up and offer it to people who really want to start a business and be successful at it and hit the ground running. And I tell people, you know, I'm not here to tell you, you know, you're going to make a bazillion dollars. Are you going to book so many weddings are so many freelance gigs. I'm just here to help you build a solid business foundation and have the knowledge to manage it so you can be successful. And it seems to be working. I got some people that are lined up that are, they're making some strides and understanding what they need to do and how to do it. And, and it's, you know, it seems to be working for them.
Ben Brewer:
Wow. That's really powerful. That really does kind of differentiate you as a photographer too. So, so where can people find more about about your, your business mentoring program or where can they find your work online?
Jerome Pollos:
Well, if they searched Jerome Pollos Photography it's kind of my wedding and portrait website and also have some information about the mentoring on there. And then JeromePollos.com is kind of my commercial editorial website that has an archive of a lot of images I've taken over the years. And it's kind of the air to attract my freelance assignments.
Ben Brewer:
Fantastic. Well, we'll have a links to all the sites in show notes for this episode and, and have some photos from some of the stuff we've talked about. So people can check that out online. We'll do our own. Thanks for coming on the photo forward podcast. I think this has been an awesome conversation. I think that that students will have a lot to learn from what we've talked about and and your site online. So thanks for coming on.
Jerome Pollos:
No problem. Thank you, Ben. I think what you're doing is pretty kick. I mean, it's a, it's good to have people that are constantly kind of informing the people in this industry and, and keeping the ideas of, you know, being successful and learning and education out there. It's definitely needed.
Ben Brewer:
Awesome. Thanks, Jerome.